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Recovery Plan to avert the economic catastrophe threatened in wake of rail landslip
With many regular commuters forced to find places to lodge in London because of the disruption to the rail service, some local businesses reporting a substantial drop in tourist numbers over the May Bank Holiday - the traditional start of the busy summer season - and significant numbers announcing that they fear they will have to sell up because of the unreliability of the replacement rail services, Deal is facing a mounting economic crisis in the wake of the Christmas Eve landslip that has closed the railway.
Even in the unlikely event of the rail service being reestablished before the end-of-year target it is now certain that the entire summer season will be overshadowed by the rail line closure.
Trains 4 Deal has developed a four point recovery plan to ensure that the economic impacts are mitigated as soon as possible after the reopening of the line
* Extra cheap and discounted fares to encourage traffic back worked out in conjunction with the rail operators.
* The reintroduction of the loop services with a much higher profile marketing campaign to encourage sustainable tourism around the Kent coast.
* An enhanced festival for the summer of 2017.
* A high profile public relations campaign.
Even in the unlikely event of the rail service being reestablished before the end-of-year target it is now certain that the entire summer season will be overshadowed by the rail line closure.
Trains 4 Deal has developed a four point recovery plan to ensure that the economic impacts are mitigated as soon as possible after the reopening of the line
* Extra cheap and discounted fares to encourage traffic back worked out in conjunction with the rail operators.
* The reintroduction of the loop services with a much higher profile marketing campaign to encourage sustainable tourism around the Kent coast.
* An enhanced festival for the summer of 2017.
* A high profile public relations campaign.
Latest update: compensation problems
Anyone else having horrendous problems getting compensation on monthly season tickets? I send the form and scan of my ticket each month, and receive two written responses against each single claim in separate envelopes on the same date, with different reference numbers quoted. This month both my written responses said I wasn't eligible for refund so no cheque for me! I've called SE twice and their phone representatives tell me to complete the forms again and resend. Somewhat farcical and deeply boring - I'm time poor enough from spending hours getting to and from work without re-doing admin that they are too incompetent to process correctly ...
Good Friday Comment:
Trains4Deal is quite right to highlight the continuing lack of progress over repairs to the sea wall. Still no word from the soporific Task Force – just the vague warning that it will take between six months to a year. Meanwhile Southeastern continues to treat its passengers with contempt.
I am a regular commuter (paying £6,000+ a year) to travel daily between Martin Mill and London St Pancras.
While the direct morning peak trains via Ramgate and Canterbury West have been a big bonus, the rudimentary bus replacement service via Dover and Folkestone is a disgrace: poorly organised, run without any form of commonsense and totally unreliable.
'invisible management'
Another vignette that should shame the invisible managers at Southeastern: I had the misfortune to need to be at work in London by 8am on Good Friday. The advertised timetable offered a bus from Martin Mill at at 6.16, arriving at Folkestone Central at 6.48 to connect with the high speed departure at 7.00.
The only problem? Southeastern had published one timetable for their passengers and given their bus contractors a completely different one. So the bus arrives just about on time at Dover Priory, and instead of departing at 6.28 as advertised, sits waiting until 6.42, the time the bus driver and controller had been given.
The inevitable result is that the connection is missed, the bus arriving about a minute before the 7am service departed: A despairing and unsuccessful Olympic-style sprint up the Folkestone Central station concourse from the bus stop and the slope inside the station, just in time to see the train doors close and the train pull out.
The timetable provided to the bus company by Southeastern is actually designed so that the bus arrives at Folkestone at 7.02, two minutes AFTER the high speed service leaves.
'half-an-hour late for work'
So half-an-hour late for work; not the end of the world, but the whole episode was symptomatic of the ramshackle and disorganised approach which Southeastern is happy to orchestrate.
The bus controllers just blame Southeastern when they are challenged or questioned. There is no flexibility or commonsense. Southeastern staff are non-existent. Hi-vis jacketed stewards fulfil virtually no useful purpose whatsover. No attempt is made to communicate between the bus controllers and train dispatch staff or to hold trains for even a minute to make connections.
The bus operators are just reaping the financial windfall that the seawall collapse has created for them. They are totally unconcerned about the level of service they are providing – buses depart late from Folkestone West because drivers are on tachograph breaks, and routinely miss train connections at Dover. Bus staff sit around on the buses scoffing pizzas as passengers board their vehicles.
Southeastern need to get a proper grip; it is their responsibility to make sure the bus operators provide a viable, professional and reliable service.
I hope Trains4Deal and regular users of the line continue to pressurise Southeastern, Network Rail, the Task Force, and local MPs to make clear the status quo is not acceptable.
Anyone else having horrendous problems getting compensation on monthly season tickets? I send the form and scan of my ticket each month, and receive two written responses against each single claim in separate envelopes on the same date, with different reference numbers quoted. This month both my written responses said I wasn't eligible for refund so no cheque for me! I've called SE twice and their phone representatives tell me to complete the forms again and resend. Somewhat farcical and deeply boring - I'm time poor enough from spending hours getting to and from work without re-doing admin that they are too incompetent to process correctly ...
Good Friday Comment:
Trains4Deal is quite right to highlight the continuing lack of progress over repairs to the sea wall. Still no word from the soporific Task Force – just the vague warning that it will take between six months to a year. Meanwhile Southeastern continues to treat its passengers with contempt.
I am a regular commuter (paying £6,000+ a year) to travel daily between Martin Mill and London St Pancras.
While the direct morning peak trains via Ramgate and Canterbury West have been a big bonus, the rudimentary bus replacement service via Dover and Folkestone is a disgrace: poorly organised, run without any form of commonsense and totally unreliable.
'invisible management'
Another vignette that should shame the invisible managers at Southeastern: I had the misfortune to need to be at work in London by 8am on Good Friday. The advertised timetable offered a bus from Martin Mill at at 6.16, arriving at Folkestone Central at 6.48 to connect with the high speed departure at 7.00.
The only problem? Southeastern had published one timetable for their passengers and given their bus contractors a completely different one. So the bus arrives just about on time at Dover Priory, and instead of departing at 6.28 as advertised, sits waiting until 6.42, the time the bus driver and controller had been given.
The inevitable result is that the connection is missed, the bus arriving about a minute before the 7am service departed: A despairing and unsuccessful Olympic-style sprint up the Folkestone Central station concourse from the bus stop and the slope inside the station, just in time to see the train doors close and the train pull out.
The timetable provided to the bus company by Southeastern is actually designed so that the bus arrives at Folkestone at 7.02, two minutes AFTER the high speed service leaves.
'half-an-hour late for work'
So half-an-hour late for work; not the end of the world, but the whole episode was symptomatic of the ramshackle and disorganised approach which Southeastern is happy to orchestrate.
The bus controllers just blame Southeastern when they are challenged or questioned. There is no flexibility or commonsense. Southeastern staff are non-existent. Hi-vis jacketed stewards fulfil virtually no useful purpose whatsover. No attempt is made to communicate between the bus controllers and train dispatch staff or to hold trains for even a minute to make connections.
The bus operators are just reaping the financial windfall that the seawall collapse has created for them. They are totally unconcerned about the level of service they are providing – buses depart late from Folkestone West because drivers are on tachograph breaks, and routinely miss train connections at Dover. Bus staff sit around on the buses scoffing pizzas as passengers board their vehicles.
Southeastern need to get a proper grip; it is their responsibility to make sure the bus operators provide a viable, professional and reliable service.
I hope Trains4Deal and regular users of the line continue to pressurise Southeastern, Network Rail, the Task Force, and local MPs to make clear the status quo is not acceptable.
Open Letter to David Statham,
Managing Director, Southeastern Trains.
10 March 2016
Dear David,
I caught the 11.37pm from St Pancras last night.
Got the road connection for Deal without incident although it was freezing cold with no heating on the bus and we had to wait a further 10 minutes at Folkestone West for no apparent reason, it was after all the last bus meeting the last train.
When the bus arrived outside Dover station the driver stopped the engine and got off leaving the doors open and an icy gale blowing over the passengers. He then strolled off to get himself a cup of tea which he proceeded to drink in front of us, while insulated in his heated driver's cabin. The whole process took 15 minutes and remember we had been kept waiting for 10 before the journey started.
What on earth are Southeastern and its contractors playing at?
How dare you keep paying passengers sitting in freezing conditions while your staff saunter around drinking hot beverages?
It was like something out of a 1950s Ealing comedy and certainly had no place in the activities of a modern train operating company in contemporary Britain.
Yours sincerely
Frustrated of Deal
Managing Director, Southeastern Trains.
10 March 2016
Dear David,
I caught the 11.37pm from St Pancras last night.
Got the road connection for Deal without incident although it was freezing cold with no heating on the bus and we had to wait a further 10 minutes at Folkestone West for no apparent reason, it was after all the last bus meeting the last train.
When the bus arrived outside Dover station the driver stopped the engine and got off leaving the doors open and an icy gale blowing over the passengers. He then strolled off to get himself a cup of tea which he proceeded to drink in front of us, while insulated in his heated driver's cabin. The whole process took 15 minutes and remember we had been kept waiting for 10 before the journey started.
What on earth are Southeastern and its contractors playing at?
How dare you keep paying passengers sitting in freezing conditions while your staff saunter around drinking hot beverages?
It was like something out of a 1950s Ealing comedy and certainly had no place in the activities of a modern train operating company in contemporary Britain.
Yours sincerely
Frustrated of Deal
"We realise that passengers in Dover, Deal, Folkestone and Sandwich are keen to know when we will be able to reopen the line, and I can reassure them we are working very hard to get them an answer.
... As soon as we have a design and a timescale we are confident in, we will let everyone know."
Alasdair Coates, Network Rail’s route managing director
... As soon as we have a design and a timescale we are confident in, we will let everyone know."
Alasdair Coates, Network Rail’s route managing director
11 weeks after the disastrous collapse of the rail embankment between Folkestone and Dover and Rail Track still has not come up with firm repair proposals for the collapsed section of the line.
There is no word on progressing the alternative Kent County Council proposal of running HS1 trains along the Dover/Canterbury East line, although it is becoming clear that this is a cheaper, more reliable and quicker option.
There is no word on progressing the alternative Kent County Council proposal of running HS1 trains along the Dover/Canterbury East line, although it is becoming clear that this is a cheaper, more reliable and quicker option.
Tom Rowland (left) and Ian Killbery (not in picture) meet with Southeastern managers at Deal Station 3rd March 2016
Network Rail has yet to decide on which recommendation to make for the repair of the track, said Alvin Wedderburn, area managing director of Southeastern Trains, he was speaking at the meet the passengers session held at Deal Station on Thursday evening. The estimated time remains at between six and 12 months before trains will run again on the stretch of line.
There are four possible options on the table, he said. In the first a new sea wall will be constructed in front of the existing breakwater; the second option would see a new sea wall on the inside of the breakwater, the third is to replace the entire viaduct with a new bridge and the fourth to make the bridge capable of accommodating a double line.
The delay was quite unacceptable, agreed Simon Miles, senior scheduler for Southeastern Trains. The rail operating company was as frustrated as passengers with the lack of progress, added Caroline Wilson, the area rail manager.
All of the Southeastern representatives at the meeting agreed that even when the repairs were completed there was no guarantee that the section of line would not face further closures in the future. The chalk cliff is inherently unstable making the line vulnerable to rock falls and further problems with Shakespeare's Tunnel which runs through the crumbly chalk cliff.
Southeastern has no word on progress of the KCC alternative which by building one short stretch of track would join the Canterbury East line to the fast line into St Pancras, adding just four minutes to journey times from Deal while allowing the HS loop via Ramsgate, Deal and Dover to be reinstated.
There are four possible options on the table, he said. In the first a new sea wall will be constructed in front of the existing breakwater; the second option would see a new sea wall on the inside of the breakwater, the third is to replace the entire viaduct with a new bridge and the fourth to make the bridge capable of accommodating a double line.
The delay was quite unacceptable, agreed Simon Miles, senior scheduler for Southeastern Trains. The rail operating company was as frustrated as passengers with the lack of progress, added Caroline Wilson, the area rail manager.
All of the Southeastern representatives at the meeting agreed that even when the repairs were completed there was no guarantee that the section of line would not face further closures in the future. The chalk cliff is inherently unstable making the line vulnerable to rock falls and further problems with Shakespeare's Tunnel which runs through the crumbly chalk cliff.
Southeastern has no word on progress of the KCC alternative which by building one short stretch of track would join the Canterbury East line to the fast line into St Pancras, adding just four minutes to journey times from Deal while allowing the HS loop via Ramsgate, Deal and Dover to be reinstated.
Communications must improve
Trains4deal reinforced the points made by many passing passengers, who shared their recent experiences with rail managers. Top of the list was better communications, for as long as this situation continues: for example, passengers travelling back from St Pancras need to know whether to go via Folkestone or Ramsgate. Station staff need to be fully briefed, and the public announcement systems on trains and platforms should give timely information along the route so that travellers can plan ahead - for example to be met at a station.
Trains4deal pressed managers to produce up-to-date timetable leaflets that passengers could carry with them for reference - we emphasized that these arrangements are rather complicated, particularly for commuters who work irregular hours.
Trains4deal reinforced the points made by many passing passengers, who shared their recent experiences with rail managers. Top of the list was better communications, for as long as this situation continues: for example, passengers travelling back from St Pancras need to know whether to go via Folkestone or Ramsgate. Station staff need to be fully briefed, and the public announcement systems on trains and platforms should give timely information along the route so that travellers can plan ahead - for example to be met at a station.
Trains4deal pressed managers to produce up-to-date timetable leaflets that passengers could carry with them for reference - we emphasized that these arrangements are rather complicated, particularly for commuters who work irregular hours.
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*TWO DIRECT
MORNING TRAINS; *Plus ONE BACK DIRECT AT 5.50PM; *Plus BETTER RAMSGATE SHUTTLE LINKS; *Plus BUS MEETS 11.37PM AT FOLKESTONE. |
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Local campaign led by Trains4Deal wins big concessions from train operators.
Seven weeks after the disastrous rail line failure between Dover and Folkestone the campaign for improvements to the emergency service achieves our initial demands.
They told us nothing was possible - we showed them how to make improvements.
Click here to see the next phase
WHAT NEXT?
Now we have two direct morning trains for commuters up to St Pancras via Ramsgate leaving Deal at 6.02 and 7.02 on weekdays.
We have one direct train coming back in the evening leaving St Pancras at 5.50 - Monday to Friday and getting to Deal in one hour 39 minutes, scheduled to arrive at 7.29pm.
The timings on the Ramsgate shuttle link to Sandwich, Deal and Dover have been improved so that most of the time it now does not leave travellers stranded on Ramsgate station for up to 40 minutes and provides a sensible link from Ramsgate. Journeys are still significantly slower of course but now you don't have to freeze as well.
And you can now get home after a late evening in London with a bus service to Deal and Sandwich which meets the 11.37pm departure from St Pancras at Folkestone West.
It is no substitute for an hourly direct train service but with the line repairs progressing at snail's pace and no end date announced, for the time being it just about makes life tolerable for those travelling during the week.
MP promised action but "task force" stalled
Repairs will take up to one year says Network Rail.
Click here to see Details
Local MP Charlie Elphicke told us he now leads a new Task Force established to speed up the repair work.
Click here to- see details
Repairs will take up to one year says Network Rail.
Click here to see Details
Local MP Charlie Elphicke told us he now leads a new Task Force established to speed up the repair work.
Click here to- see details
Trains4Deal's priorities:
1. A coherent, funded plan to provide an alternative to the Dover to Folkestone coast route.
Resilience needed. Cliff falls & tunnel problems could easily shut the main line again even when the sea wall is mended. We support the Kent County Council initiative to extend the valley line to Canterbury East and on to the Ashford line as an emergency back up. It is easy and cheap and will only add about four minutes to journey times from Deal and Dover to Ashford and London.
Click here to Find out more-->
2. We still need extra direct HS trains off-peak.
3. Some direct HS trains (or protected connections) at weekends.
Tell us what you think of:
- their travel information?
- the bus and rail replacements offered?
- would you rather use a direct HS train via Ramsgate?
- their travel information?
- the bus and rail replacements offered?
- would you rather use a direct HS train via Ramsgate?
Your comments
NEW! What about Kearsney?
"Everybody seems to be concerned with DEAL", (says NS from Kearsney)
"I travel from KEARSNEY to DOVER P to get HS1 normally. With the exception of 07:00-10:00 and 15:00-19:00 the trains are once per hour and around 45 minute wait to and from HS1 in daytime and weekends. Similarly, I can't even connect with an 06:48 HS1 weekday service because Kearsney has one train at 06:00 and then 07:00!
The fiasco with the sea wall means my local service DOESN'T EVEN CONNECT with bus replacements at Dover P, adding another 40 minutes wait time in the cold!
Initially, although my annual season ticket and my partner's is purchased at Dover P and we travel by Dover P, the wording was "Deal, Walmer, Martin Mill and Dover P" for the sea wall compensation and Customer Services were arguing that people at my station and Shepherdswell would not be compensated despite being exactly the same season ticket price as Dover.
Southeastern even haven't got the will to run a shuttle train between Faversham and Dover P to allow customers to connect with HS1 from there. At the moment, our mainline service can have a 20+ minute wait, because HS1 leaves Faversham just a couple of minutes before my mainline gets in there. The route from Dover P is dual - via Dover or via Faversham but the latter takes 2 hours instead of 1hour 15!
Also the buses to Dover are old, they crawl up the hill at Folkestone at around 5mph making travelling times longer, and they are freezing cold. In contrast, Deal have nice warm modern coaches and regular shuttle trains at Dover P until 19:00.
I can understand people's situation in Deal, but, honestly, you got it better than the commuters on the KEARSNEY to Faversham branch. Services always late, cancelled, or services suddenly not calling at stops because they are late running. All for circa £6,200 per year (without London Underground travel).
Earlier comments:
Tuesday 8 March:
Now we have a kind-of makeshift service I think Network Rail, and the rest of them have relaxed and things are progressing in their normal slow way. The line closure is no longer regarded as a CRISIS. Southeastern had one of their (pointless?) Meet the Manager sessions at SPI the other day and noone there could give me any kind of clue about what was to happen about the reconstruction and the lady said they were all waiting on Network Rail. I just get the feeling that all urgency has gone from the issue. Time to make a big fuss again?
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Thanks for the report and blogs on the problems arising from the failed trestle near Dover.First I want to thank Trans4Deal, and especially you and Tom, for all that you are doing to get some clarity and progress!
Second, there are three things which I think should be raised at the Meet the Manager session at Deal Station at 5pm on 3rd March:
1. Southeastern MUST do much more to make sure that all the available information as to timetables, etc, is available. The website is atrocious,as it refers you to Trainline, and other sites (all not up to date). The latest UP TO DATE paper timetables at Deal and other stations must cover not just the shuttle or trains to London, but also to Margate and Canterbury.
2. Southeastern MUST instruct its staff NOT to let its trains depart before a connecting train has arrived, especially at Ramsgate! Surely it is not necessary to worry about the on-time statistics during this very disruptive period before the line at Dover is re-instated. Train and signalling staff will know if there is late running, and can inform platform staff accordingly.
3. With regard to the loop at Minster, it seems that Southeastern are concerned about availability of paths, and lack of staff to operate at Minster. Concerning the paths, why not have the early HS trains to London from Dover couple to the HS trains from Ramsgate at Minster using the loop.
This would avoid passengers wasting time travelling to Ramsgate and back
through Minster on the way to London. And surely some extra staff at Minster could be hired to supervise this, during the disruptive period. The evening return trains might operate similarly.
The idea of a loop linking the Dover-Faversham line to the Canterbury West to Ashford line just beyond Canterbury East Station is, in my view, a long term option only, and will not solve the immediate problem. The place wherethe new loop would be is over marshy land, and the loop has to be long enough to ease the gradient between the two main lines because of the different levels they are on. This idea is similar to the temporary loop that was put in between the two main lines because of the 1953 floods in Thanet, but that loop was the north side of the Canterbury-Ashford line on firmer ground, and the gradient was more favourable.
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Thanks to Trains4Deal and lots of lobbying of Southeastern and the support of MP Charlie Elphicke, there is a second direct high speed service from Dover, via Ramsgate and Canterbury West to London each weekday morning, leaving Dover at 0542, and arriving at St Pancras at 0743. It has not been very well advertised – but it has been much appreciated on the first four days of operation this week. Despite the longer journey time, it is a vast improvement on the ramshackle train/bus/train operation via Folkestone stations. Thanks again to all those who pressed for this service to be introduced.
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I am a violinist living in Sandwich. The late night services via Ramsgate stop too early. The last direct train to Sandwich is now 22.37 instead of 23.37 and that requires that l travel via Folkestone.
If l have a late show l have no choice but to drive to Folkestone West. I worked 6/7 days a week for six weeks over Christmas which was a nightmare. I actually drove to Canterbury W for earlier shows which is much more convenient for Sandwich but l wasn't entiled to non high speecd reduction or free carpark on this route.
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I must say I'm very pleased that new hourly train times have just been introduced from Deal to St Pancras this week. We are off to a hospital appointment on Monday leaving Deal at 10.34. There is a connection at Ramsgate 15 minutes after we arrive going direct to London on the high speed train on the same platform. This is a vast improvement on what has been on offer since January. Cost £14.90 each return with a two together rail card. (via Streetlife
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We need a full time direct train service now.
Today 8.11 train from Walmer arrived Dover on time bus going to Folkestone West arrived at Folkestone Central ? ?? 2 minutes before the train left. Despite informing station staff that two elderly people were trying to catch the train, the train left with out them. They weren't able to run like the rest of the bus passengers.
This is a disgusting way to treat customers.
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I attended the meeting on Friday, but unfortunately I was slightly late (as a result of having to commute back from London), so was stuck at the back and I could not hear what was being said by the speakers, and after feeling sick from being too hot and thrn witnessing someone else fainting, I left the meeting. I also felt the behaviour of some people towards the speakers was rude and inappropriate. While I am sure that a contributing factor, if not the reason itself, for the sea wall's collapse will be the result of human error and negligence, from where we are now, my main grievance concerns the behaviour of staff at the ticket barriers at St Pancras who accuse me of fare dodging because I do not have a highspeed ticket. I even carry a note from the ticket office at Deal requesting that I am allowed to travel without harassment, but the harassment has continued. I would have liked to have had the opportunity to voice this at the meeting, and wonder if you could pass this on to an appropriate representative of southeastern on my behalf. Thank you! I also hope any future meetings will be in a bigger venue as I do appreciate what trains4deal is doing!
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The extra train from Dover runs in and out of Ramsgate so its timings are no quicker than those which require a change off and on the shuttle. I am not clear why the Minster loop option is not on offer as that would save 20-25 minutes.
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Reason the task force has been created is because no one knows who is going to pay to fix the line yet. That's why there hasn't been any significant work done yet.
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Sunday 21st Feb:
6-12 months according the the BBC. Does anyone have any insight as to why this is going to take so long and how much it is costing. There seems to be close to zero official communication.
At Dawlish they threw everything at it and fixed the line in 2 months.
Does anyone know the costs of the respective operations and how they were/are financed. To cut right to the chase: what leverage does central government have and was Dawlish given greater priority and why?We are entitled to know so that we can make informed judgements at the ballot box.
==============================
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/network-rail-earmarks-18-major-stations-for-privatisation-in-bid-to-tackle-debt-a6886551.html
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Wednesday 17 Feb:
Charing x service - woeful. There seems to be lots of comments about high speed from walmer but as a slow train user it is terrible. I get the hs to st Pancras and then have a 40 min walk to Charing x as I cant afford the tube fare every day. Coming home tonight I left Charing x on 1510, them got bus to Dover as no buses for Walmer. I now have a 40 min wait for train to depart. The buses that meet the 1540 train would get me home sooner..how stupid is that....only a year to go. Station staff are not particularly helpful and announcements are non-existent. Prob should have gone via Ramsgate.
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One major problem at the moment is not being able to get correct information via the National Rail site. Southeastern should completely re organize all their timetables and provide the direct service via Ramsgate.
They should also provide free parking at other stations until the line is repaired.ould they not provide faster trains Dover to Victoria every two hours by only stopping at three or four stations? Plus the same on the return?
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Misery on Southeastern
This morning I caught the special link train from Deal to Ramsgate at 6.34 to connect with the 06.58 leaving Ramsgate.
Your farcical and comical organisation held our Ramsgate bound train outside Ramsgate to allow our London bound train to pass us by!!!!!!!
On arriving at Ramsgate your poorly trained and embarrassed staff "RAN" away. On pursuing him he was abusive rude and offered nothing of an apology. On demanding to meet the station master we had to shout across to another platform to get his attention. He was completely unaware of the error of the platform man in letting the train go.
Their is no communication!!!!
As I have said on numerous occasions Mr Statham - you are not fit for purpose. I recently learned that your previous company had just a bad a record.
You should step down. You are a failure and I for one see no reason why I should be paying £6000 a year to pay an incompetent idiot.
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Tuesday 16 Feb:
It appears as suspected that there is no quick fix for the Dover to Folkestone section of line, if indeed there is any fix that will guard against future problems on this section of track.Link to Canterbury to Ashfird line at Wincheap seems a good solution, however the location of the proposed junction would appear to be in an area prone to flooding from the River Stour.
In the meantime we need additional HS trains morning and evening via Ramsgate, or ideally using the Minster loop as surely signaling issues could be overcome here relatively cheaply in comparison to the other works needed.
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They don't even come close to satisfactory. But that's no surprise, as we are always treated as the poor relation to the rest of Kent. Surely more trains could run directly through Canterbury West and Minster???
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Perhaps another point to make to Southeastern are their responsibilities to those with large items of luggage including cycles. As this not short-term engineering works. So they should provide replacement buses with adequate storage space.
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Monday 15 Feb:
Just read that the whole thing has to be rebuilt
To answer the above question,I would rather have a direct service from Deal doing the loop & taking a bit longer than hanging around in the cold waiting for bus/ train connections
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Friday 12 Feb:
Absolutely not, they are appalling. The normally dismal website offers an ostrich like refusal to even admit that there are no through trains, the staff on the phone know nothing at all. We would be happy to change at Ramsgate if there was a reliable service to Deal, but there is not. Better still why not split the train at Ramsgate to eiter Dover or Margate so we would not have to change. We need to get home leaving London at 21.30, which is impossible at the moment. Given the huge cost of tickets we are totally fed up with this non service.
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Saturday 23 Jan:
For leisure travellers and families the worry is they might get used to travelling by car to Ashford or Ebbsfleet, which is quite a bit cheaper and cuts down the normal journey time from Deal to Ashford. I know lots of families who now travel by car to Ashford or Ebbsfleet when travelling in to London.
I would much prefer to travel on the high speed from Deal, however all the time the shuttle service is in place, as a family we'll just drive to Ashford.
Hope this feedback helps.
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Friday 22 Jan:
I see Southeastern have just announced one peak-time highspeed service between Dover and St Pancras in the morning and one in the evening. While welcome for some, this is a very limited response. It is of no help to those who need to be in London around 7.30 or before 8am in the morning. Presumably it was announced on Friday to take some of the heat out of your protest meeting on Friday Jan 22. Can you please maintain pressure for more high speed direct trains in the earlier morning peak via Ramsgate or Minster loop, or insist at the very least that the Dover to Ramsgate shuttle starts earlier to connect with existing high speed services from Ramsgate, via Canterbury West.to arrive in London at 714 and 742. The existing arrangements are woefully inadequate. We must have something better than the patchwork of ill-timed and unreliable bus services. Good luck for your meeting.
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Reason the task force has been created is because no one knows who is going to pay to fix the line yet. That's why there hasn't been any significant work done yet.
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To compound the daily horror we have just been subjected to around 10 southeastern staff at Ramsgate performing a ticket check at the exit to the station! Could the MD of Southeastern explain to us why it is impossible to provide a workable service, but resource is being wasted on pointless monitoring?
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I’m sure everyone will echo my tales of woe, but so far I’ve had to get three £25 taxis to Ramsgate to catch the London train, after the shuttle train was cancelled at the last minute and a promised replacement bus failed to show up. I have had to book a hotel at Heathrow and stay overnight to get a 10.10am flight to the US, because I didn’t feel confident the trains would be able get me from Deal in time. And I’ve so far stayed four nights in London, because by the time I’d got back home to Deal, it would almost be time to set out back again for early meetings.
The expense has been crippling, but what is most frustrating is the lack of accurate information, anywhere. You get on a train from London not knowing if there will be buses at Folkestone West or whether the connection at Ramsgate will show up. Last week, I waited 40 minutes in bitter cold on the platform at Ramsgate for a train towards Dover that - according to both the constant loudspeaker announcements and the boards - was running late but due any minute. Eventually, one of the station staff told us we were waiting for a train that had actually left five minutes before the London train pulled in, and that there wouldn’t be another one. Again got home by taxi, sharing with two other stranded Deal-ites.
But you know this already...
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I can see where you are coming from with the services starting at Dover vice Margate 12 car and Ashford, however the resources aren't there to do that. If you think, the driver and on board manager for both those services need to come from somewhere and they are already on other trains starting from. I Folkestone and from Ashford and Margate and they would have to book on so much earlier that they wouldn't be able to work the last part of their shift so trains later in the day would be affected by no crew. there are no more members of staff to run these services.
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Friday 15th:
I'm retired so don't have to travel to London but use it regularly for recreation, but won't be for awhile until this is sorted.
Can't believe the times of the buses from Dover or the fast trains from Ramsgate don't seem to have been co-ordinated in any way for people travelling from Martin Mill, Walmer, Deal & Sandwich.
People in the know have known for years that those tunnels have been unsafe and nothings been done.
I reckon it's going to be quite a while before they're up & running again. Using the Minster loop seems inevitable so it may as well be sooner rather than later.
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Only sheets for Mon-Friday trains available. New w/end poster up at Deal station today. No good way to return to Deal Sat evening and best to compare with the one on this site. Staff think the Folkestone option best in evenings, but travel vis Ramsgate better in morning. Do not count on National Rail Enquiries updating all journeys.
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Thursday 14th:
It is essential that the Minster Loop is a priority to a renewed all day/every day high sped service from Deal to London St Pancs.
Bus shuttles are unreliable, connections and communication also unreliable.
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The arrangements are sadly lacking, utilizing the minster loop which is available would solve the problem - a two hour journey is not acceptable - particularly as there is a long waiting time at Ramsgate to connect to the HS train- pull your finger out southeastern trains
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Wednesday 13th:
Im not opposed to greater use of the Minster loop but I think the focus on triage is a mistake. The focus should be on fixing the line quickly and permanently. This probably requires additional funds/ commitments from central government. Clearly at Dawlish there was a major commitment to resolving the issue quickly and there is not the same commitment to the Dover line because we are are relatively low priority. The only possible leverage we have is to commit to vote for the Tories nearest rivals at the next general election unless we see a major commitment to the area. Across the three affected constituencies this could make the government take notice. I say this as a natural Tory voter and a realist.
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Hi Sorry we didn't attend on Monday, only found your site on Tuesday.
I totally agree with every thing you have put here. Yesterday came via Folkestone before direct bus started, arrived at Dover with four minutes to spare. Would have been an hours wait or a taxi ride. With train bus train via Folkestone it now takes 1 hour 50 minutes to travel St Pancras to Walmer.
We all know there is no quick fix to re-installing the line. We need an adequate service now.
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The St Pancras circular route was very convenient not only for St Pancras passengers but those wishing to travel to intermediate stations such as the Medway Towns. Why is it not possible to have a circular route which starts at Dover terminating at Folkestone via St Pancras and then Folkestone to Dover via St Pancras??
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Travelling to London twice a week is utterly miserable at present.Non of the connections work well.Think the Minster Loop a great idea.Wish the TRAINS4DEAL protest at the Bohemian had been on the Deal Web earlier as would have attended but new nothing about it Have enormous respect for TRAINS4DEAL after the battle for HS1
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Tuesday 12th:
No . They are ill thought out and random in both information and performance. Deal seems to be an unwelcome adjunct for SE and at any excuse they drop us out of the equation . They have a legal responsibility to run HS trains from Deal , whether they like it or not . Many people have moved home and business to Deal on the back of fast trains . Who is going to pick up their costs ? SE? Network Rail? The collapse of the sea wall is clearly the result of years of neglect, not a few weeks heavy rain . Is there a compensation scheme ? And if not, why not?
However, just in the short term more trains MUST run from Deal.
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Monday 11th:
Sorry that I can't come to the meeting to lend support as I am driving (perforce) back to London that afternoon. I am not a daily commuter but have great sympathy for those who are. I do go to London once every two weeks or so, however, and I am appalled by the lack of joined up thinking by Southeastern - replacement buses that don't connect to the service intended! Surely this can and must be sorted out at a minimum. It is nothing short of insulting.
Also, as a minimum, could we have an indication of times during which the Deal ticket office is open so as to get advice from a real live person. Opening hours seem to be a closely guarded secret. At present, there is a sign saying the ticket office is open 05.45-19.10! Not much use if there is no one manning it. I have gone at various times during the day, but have not yet managed to catch anyone on duty. There is also a sign saying that there is an alternative route to London via Canterbury, but Canterbury is not on the timetable boards! Unbelievable. My needs are nothing like as urgent as the commuters, but presumably Southeastern would like my business - if they want it, they will have to let me know what my options are.
When things go wrong (and a collapsed sea wall is as wrong as it comes) no one expects it to be easy, nor for there to be a miracle solution, but a good clear system of communication should be possible and would reduce frustration and unnecessary stress.
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I don't work in London but I have quite a lot of journeys to visit my sick sister on London, sometimes returning Sundays. I waited at Folkestone for an hour for a replacement bus Sunday - there was no sign to say which platform the buses go from. I will only go via Ramsgate in future , but I do support your plan for HSs to go via Ramsgate loop. I am also sorry they still expect us to pay a high speed price and claim it back!!!
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Monday 11th:
Replacement buses must be timed to connect with the intended service - in the event of unavoidable delays, the train must wait.
Better information about alternative routes (not using buses) should be available.
The manned hours of the Deal station should be clearly displayed so that advice can be sought from a real person.
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Monday 11th:
The train service from Deal to St Pancras is inadequate at the moment. I have hospital appointments and an operation in London coming up for treatment for pain, and travelling for me is very difficult as it is, without an extended journey with extra travel changes. Please consider a direct HS train to St Pancras via the Minster loop. Thank you
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Sunday 10th:
Southeastern's response to the broken line is inadequate. The Minster loop is a far more effective and fair solution for the commuters of Dover, Sandwich and Deal. It needs to be resolved now.
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Sunday 10th:
My partner and I have just put our house on sale this weekend and plan to move from Deal to Ashford. The current situation with the ridiculously unreliable connections sadly makes it too difficult to commute from Deal anymore.
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Sunday 10th:
Fix it Southeastern trains. Use a bit of imagination and creativity to improve this vital commute as your inept and useless inspections of the sea wall have shown you are clearly in breach of your contractual obligations as a train operator.
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Sunday 10th:
Hi, I go up to London every week. I can cope with the bus up via Ramsgate but am not prepared to do the train/bus/train coming home.
Also I heard a train guy say this week that they don't think it will be fixed till June!
Unfortunately I can't make Monday's mtg as I"ll be in London but keen to support suggestions for better service and also to encourage them to fix quicker.
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Sunday 10th:
I am driving to Folkestone west from Walmer, and I'd be happy to offer lift back to Deal for anyone of my fellow sufferers.
can't offer a permanent car share, as I am a bit erratic on the return, but will normally be on the 17.37or 18.37 - feel free to drop me a line on 07718207579 And see if I am on!
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Sunday 10th:
Personally I think Southeastern planners have done a super job with such little time to work things out. Most of your plans are unrealistic and impossible to resource.
NOTE from Trains4deal: We don't think this view is widely shared. The alternatives we propose are based on painstaking research of timetables and other publicly-available information, plus discussions with industry insiders and other informed commentators. We are well aware of the constraints on what is possible (e.g. train- and crew -availability, how may trains can run down the track in peak hours, etc), but we still think that our local commuters and other rail travellers deserve a better deal than what's actually been delivered this past week.
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Friday 8 Jan:
This morning, the 6.34 shuttle to Ramsgate was running two minutes late and we had debate about whether or not to go and get the bus service to Folkestone West when the train came in. We got on it and travelled to Ramsgate only to be held outside the station for a couple more minutes. When we arrived at the platform and the train doors opened, we could see the 06.58 train to St Pancras pulling out of the station. As you can image, 40 or so furious "customers" rounded on the station staff. They claimed that they had asked the driver to wait for our shuttle but the driver refused. This is not good enough especially as that shuttle service has been put on to connect to the trains at Ramsgate. It's always a bit of a rush as you only have a few mins to get down and then up the stairs to the correct platform. The shuttle should leave at least two minutes earlier or the driver should wait. Not the happiest of bunnies this morning.
On the plus side the express bus service from FW to Deal and Sandwich seems to be working OK although the Deal bus is very crowded.
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Friday 8 Jan:
I go in to St Pancras from Walmer 3 days a week, paying on a daily basis, usually on the earliest off peak train. Since the line collapse I'm now driving to Folkestone West for the 09.16 if I want to get to St Pancras (changing at Ashford) for 10.21 ( I have a connection for another train from Marylebone). Alternatively I go via Ramsgate on the 08.47, getting in at 10.46. Both are now frustratingly longer than normal (the 0839, 1 change at Ashford, in at 1021, or the 0939 direct which arrives at 10.51).
I agree, they need to sort out some more direct trains, via Canterbury, but not just at peak time -off-peak and super off-peak too.
The current set up is a shambles. The 'express' buses don't take 20 minutes as the schedule says, when there's any traffic they miss the connection. Why they pick up at Folkestone Central too is a mystery, get everyone who needs a bus off at Folkestone West.
At Folkestone West the car park is virtually full and they have no plans for an overflow, don't seem interested.
It's also impossible to get the reduced fare they promised, excluding high speed, at Folkestone West. Even though I have a driving licence showing I live in Walmer they say I could be a Folkestone resident so won't sell a ticket from Walmer. I have to explain this constantly on the train and buy a ticket, after queuing, at St Pancras.
6 months of this could do me in.
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As someone who spends a fortune on HS commuting on the 05.57 from Deal to St Pancras I would be happy for a straight through route. My husband gets a train an hour later we own one car so we can't both drive to folkestone,nor do we wish to. Also my student daughter does not own a car so it is assumed we will put up with awful journey for months. The communication from southern is rubbish Christmas eve we had no idea if we were going to get home.
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The service has been very poor this week. While the fast bus from Deal has been efficient, it leaves me with 25 minutes wait in Folkestone. On the return, there are no announcements in FKW, with Tuesday's 17.37 STP departure stopping at Ashford due driver hours, 20 min wait, then no fast bus to Deal at FKW. Journey home took nearly 3 hrs!! With little sleep, this morning's 0545 stopped at Ashford for 30 mins and I missed an 8am meeting. Utterly dreadful start to 2016. The direct train from Dover via Ramsgate makes complete sense. They must have thought about it. Why have they not implemented it?
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Hello Have tweeted quite a bit on this and just found your website. Approve of most of your suggestions. Doubt can make Monday as having 0430 alarms at the moment but hope goes well! Email to Charlie Elphicke as below, best wishes Tristan Dear Charlie Elphicke There are several suggestions that would seem to make sense during the current rail trouble, but the two main ones distil down to this: a. consider a direct service from Dover to St Pancras via Ramsgate b. with regard to shuttle trains on the Dover-Sandwich line, in either direction, or for replacement buses, please make sure these match up with train services. For example, meet HS trains at Folkestone West, even if they're delayed. Make sure trains from Ramsgate to Deal/Dover (and vice versa) arrive and leave to be times with the Ramsgate HS services.
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I have been posting various tweets on the South East system and have also suggested the route as outlined. I am not happy or satisfied with their responses. I was not particularly happy this morning either whereupon having driven to Folkestone Central, the (0711) slow train was still on the platform which delayed the HS. To make it worse we were kicked off at Ashford this evening due to having no driver to continue our journey to Folkestone. Hundreds disrupted and having to squash on the 1852 slow train to Folkestone rather than merely having 1 Staff member - a driver, continue on. all of this is of course on top of the seemingly uncaring, thoughtless , nonsensical approach being offered by South Eastern for rail replacement work that will no doubt take a fair few months to complete. South Eastern have, and continue doing so, in treating rail passengers with such disdain as to suggest they are doing us a favour. We have no choice but to utilise their services and we need both the High Speed and regular service to be run by 2 separate and different companies in order to offer competition and improvement.
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I agree with all of the above. We must have direct HS trains from Deal during the peak hours. Have so far been going via Ramsgate but connections mean 15-25 mins waiting on station, not good enough! Also, the information regarding current replacement services has been appalling, the fast buses in particular which I only heard about today.
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Agree wholeheartedly with direct trains proposal. The alternative services are a joke. Either stuck on a bus (and what happens during Operation Stack or increased security at Dover to traffic?) or waiting in the cold to connect for half an hour at Ramsgate? We decided to drive from Deal to Ramsgate and catch the train from there, but a commute which now exceeds 5 hours a day isn't viable long term. As for the "compensation" - it is derisory. Would like to come to the meeting on Monday 11th but have a work function that evening
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They are also running a fast bus to Walmer/Deal from Folkestone West linking from the 17.37 and 18.37 from St Pancras but commuters were told to get off at Folkestone Central...!
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I'm a season ticket holder, commuitng daily from Martin Mill to London St Pancras. I normally catch the 0608 departure to arrive in London at 0725. The replacement train/bus/train service, which I experienced this morning was laborious. The bus connections are poor. Please do try to pressurise Sotheastern to run some direct high speed trains from Dover, Martin Mill, Walmer, Deal and Sandwich, via Ramsgate and Canterbury for the early peak services. Or, at the very least, run a connecting train shuttle from Dover to Ramsgate, to connect with the 0558 and 0628 Ramsgate services to London, via Canterbury West, to allow arrival in London at 0714 and 0742.
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Subject: Unbelievable to think that in this day and age (Southeastern) can't get the most basic of transport needs sorted out and I pay £6800.00 per annum
Today arrived at St P to get the 18.37 to Folkestone West to get to Deal. It is painful enough having to leave home at 5.30 instead of 6.30 and getting home at earliest at 20.30 due to the farcical situation of the line closure. And as with many others we demand compensation and a speedy resolve. BUT today's clown ole activity is really taking the .......
So arrived at St P to take the 18.37 as far as it runs at present - learn that the train would be delayed because of staff shortages due to late running incoming train.
Train arrived into platform and we boarded and train left at 19.00 approx 23 minutes late
We were told by guard that there would be an express coach to meet us to take us in our way Direct to Deal as has been the agreement.
Arrived at Folkestone West - there was NOT ONE member of southeastern on the arrival platform. It was pouring with rain.
We proceeded to walk to the far end of the east bound car park where there were two blue double decker buses.
The bus driver told us they were not running and we should go over to the west bound car park.
On travelling across the station I met four Revenue officers on the west bound station. I said to them. "Would it not be helpful to have been on the other side to assist us". The most incredibly rude and arrogant women looked at me, smirked and said "Yes it would". I asked her for her name. She refused to give it to me. This is intolerable behaviour. I took a photograph of the group as they refused to give me any details. So the women in turn took photographs of me.
As a passenger paying £6800 a year I do not expect to be treated in such a way.
On moving to the west bound car park we were told that the express press Coach had left completely empty on time despite the train it was due to meet was running 20 minutes late. We were told the next coach would be 40 minutes. I lost my temper but calmed and apologised.
We were left in the pouring rain with no transport arguing with a bus driver who explained it was not his fault.
Eventually after 20 minutes the bus controller was able to arouse one of the sleeping drivers on the otherside of the station East Bound We then had to traipse across the station again to get on a bus.
The driver showed absolutely no compassion for the passengers and decided to take the longest possible route from Folkstone West to Follestone Central on her way to Dover by the longest route possible. She failed to use the M20 but tol all the A roads. It is now 21.00 - and he situation is utterly preposterous and intolerable.
Sent from my iPhone
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Subject: Today arrived at St P to get the 18.37 to Folkestone
Today arrived at St P to get the 18.37 to Folkestone West to get to Deal
Arrived to learn that the train would be delayed because of staff shortages
Train arrived into platform and boarded and train left at 19.00 approx
We were told by guard that there would be an express coach to meet us.
Arrived at Folkedtone West - there was not one member of southeastern on the arrival platform. It was pouring with rain.
We proceeded to walk to the far end of the east bound car park where there were two blue double decker buses.
The bus driver told us they were not running and we should go over to the west bound car park.
On travelling across the station I met four Revenue officers on the west bound station. I said to them. "Would it not be helpful to have been on the other side to assist us". The most incredibly rude and arrogant women looked at me, smirked and said "Yes it would". I asked her for her name. She refused to give it to me. This is intolerable behaviour. I took a photograph of the group as they refused to give me any details. So the women in turn took photographs of me.
As a passenger paying £6800 a year I do not expect to be treated in such a way.
On moving to the car park we were told that the express Coach had left on the dot of when the train should have arrived. We were told the next coach would be 40 minutes
Consequently we were left in the pouring rain with no transport.
Eventually after 20 minutes the bus controller was able to arouse one of the sleeping drivers on the otherside of the station East Bound We then had to traipse across the station again to get on a bus.
The driver showed absolutely no compassion for the passengers and decided to take the longest possible route from Folkstone West to Follestone Central on her way to Dover by the longest route possible. She failed to use the M20 but took all the A roads. It is now 21.00 - and he situation is utterly preposterous and intolerable.
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NEW! What about Kearsney?
"Everybody seems to be concerned with DEAL", (says NS from Kearsney)
"I travel from KEARSNEY to DOVER P to get HS1 normally. With the exception of 07:00-10:00 and 15:00-19:00 the trains are once per hour and around 45 minute wait to and from HS1 in daytime and weekends. Similarly, I can't even connect with an 06:48 HS1 weekday service because Kearsney has one train at 06:00 and then 07:00!
The fiasco with the sea wall means my local service DOESN'T EVEN CONNECT with bus replacements at Dover P, adding another 40 minutes wait time in the cold!
Initially, although my annual season ticket and my partner's is purchased at Dover P and we travel by Dover P, the wording was "Deal, Walmer, Martin Mill and Dover P" for the sea wall compensation and Customer Services were arguing that people at my station and Shepherdswell would not be compensated despite being exactly the same season ticket price as Dover.
Southeastern even haven't got the will to run a shuttle train between Faversham and Dover P to allow customers to connect with HS1 from there. At the moment, our mainline service can have a 20+ minute wait, because HS1 leaves Faversham just a couple of minutes before my mainline gets in there. The route from Dover P is dual - via Dover or via Faversham but the latter takes 2 hours instead of 1hour 15!
Also the buses to Dover are old, they crawl up the hill at Folkestone at around 5mph making travelling times longer, and they are freezing cold. In contrast, Deal have nice warm modern coaches and regular shuttle trains at Dover P until 19:00.
I can understand people's situation in Deal, but, honestly, you got it better than the commuters on the KEARSNEY to Faversham branch. Services always late, cancelled, or services suddenly not calling at stops because they are late running. All for circa £6,200 per year (without London Underground travel).
Earlier comments:
Tuesday 8 March:
Now we have a kind-of makeshift service I think Network Rail, and the rest of them have relaxed and things are progressing in their normal slow way. The line closure is no longer regarded as a CRISIS. Southeastern had one of their (pointless?) Meet the Manager sessions at SPI the other day and noone there could give me any kind of clue about what was to happen about the reconstruction and the lady said they were all waiting on Network Rail. I just get the feeling that all urgency has gone from the issue. Time to make a big fuss again?
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Thanks for the report and blogs on the problems arising from the failed trestle near Dover.First I want to thank Trans4Deal, and especially you and Tom, for all that you are doing to get some clarity and progress!
Second, there are three things which I think should be raised at the Meet the Manager session at Deal Station at 5pm on 3rd March:
1. Southeastern MUST do much more to make sure that all the available information as to timetables, etc, is available. The website is atrocious,as it refers you to Trainline, and other sites (all not up to date). The latest UP TO DATE paper timetables at Deal and other stations must cover not just the shuttle or trains to London, but also to Margate and Canterbury.
2. Southeastern MUST instruct its staff NOT to let its trains depart before a connecting train has arrived, especially at Ramsgate! Surely it is not necessary to worry about the on-time statistics during this very disruptive period before the line at Dover is re-instated. Train and signalling staff will know if there is late running, and can inform platform staff accordingly.
3. With regard to the loop at Minster, it seems that Southeastern are concerned about availability of paths, and lack of staff to operate at Minster. Concerning the paths, why not have the early HS trains to London from Dover couple to the HS trains from Ramsgate at Minster using the loop.
This would avoid passengers wasting time travelling to Ramsgate and back
through Minster on the way to London. And surely some extra staff at Minster could be hired to supervise this, during the disruptive period. The evening return trains might operate similarly.
The idea of a loop linking the Dover-Faversham line to the Canterbury West to Ashford line just beyond Canterbury East Station is, in my view, a long term option only, and will not solve the immediate problem. The place wherethe new loop would be is over marshy land, and the loop has to be long enough to ease the gradient between the two main lines because of the different levels they are on. This idea is similar to the temporary loop that was put in between the two main lines because of the 1953 floods in Thanet, but that loop was the north side of the Canterbury-Ashford line on firmer ground, and the gradient was more favourable.
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Thanks to Trains4Deal and lots of lobbying of Southeastern and the support of MP Charlie Elphicke, there is a second direct high speed service from Dover, via Ramsgate and Canterbury West to London each weekday morning, leaving Dover at 0542, and arriving at St Pancras at 0743. It has not been very well advertised – but it has been much appreciated on the first four days of operation this week. Despite the longer journey time, it is a vast improvement on the ramshackle train/bus/train operation via Folkestone stations. Thanks again to all those who pressed for this service to be introduced.
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I am a violinist living in Sandwich. The late night services via Ramsgate stop too early. The last direct train to Sandwich is now 22.37 instead of 23.37 and that requires that l travel via Folkestone.
If l have a late show l have no choice but to drive to Folkestone West. I worked 6/7 days a week for six weeks over Christmas which was a nightmare. I actually drove to Canterbury W for earlier shows which is much more convenient for Sandwich but l wasn't entiled to non high speecd reduction or free carpark on this route.
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I must say I'm very pleased that new hourly train times have just been introduced from Deal to St Pancras this week. We are off to a hospital appointment on Monday leaving Deal at 10.34. There is a connection at Ramsgate 15 minutes after we arrive going direct to London on the high speed train on the same platform. This is a vast improvement on what has been on offer since January. Cost £14.90 each return with a two together rail card. (via Streetlife
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We need a full time direct train service now.
Today 8.11 train from Walmer arrived Dover on time bus going to Folkestone West arrived at Folkestone Central ? ?? 2 minutes before the train left. Despite informing station staff that two elderly people were trying to catch the train, the train left with out them. They weren't able to run like the rest of the bus passengers.
This is a disgusting way to treat customers.
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I attended the meeting on Friday, but unfortunately I was slightly late (as a result of having to commute back from London), so was stuck at the back and I could not hear what was being said by the speakers, and after feeling sick from being too hot and thrn witnessing someone else fainting, I left the meeting. I also felt the behaviour of some people towards the speakers was rude and inappropriate. While I am sure that a contributing factor, if not the reason itself, for the sea wall's collapse will be the result of human error and negligence, from where we are now, my main grievance concerns the behaviour of staff at the ticket barriers at St Pancras who accuse me of fare dodging because I do not have a highspeed ticket. I even carry a note from the ticket office at Deal requesting that I am allowed to travel without harassment, but the harassment has continued. I would have liked to have had the opportunity to voice this at the meeting, and wonder if you could pass this on to an appropriate representative of southeastern on my behalf. Thank you! I also hope any future meetings will be in a bigger venue as I do appreciate what trains4deal is doing!
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The extra train from Dover runs in and out of Ramsgate so its timings are no quicker than those which require a change off and on the shuttle. I am not clear why the Minster loop option is not on offer as that would save 20-25 minutes.
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Reason the task force has been created is because no one knows who is going to pay to fix the line yet. That's why there hasn't been any significant work done yet.
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Sunday 21st Feb:
6-12 months according the the BBC. Does anyone have any insight as to why this is going to take so long and how much it is costing. There seems to be close to zero official communication.
At Dawlish they threw everything at it and fixed the line in 2 months.
Does anyone know the costs of the respective operations and how they were/are financed. To cut right to the chase: what leverage does central government have and was Dawlish given greater priority and why?We are entitled to know so that we can make informed judgements at the ballot box.
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/network-rail-earmarks-18-major-stations-for-privatisation-in-bid-to-tackle-debt-a6886551.html
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Wednesday 17 Feb:
Charing x service - woeful. There seems to be lots of comments about high speed from walmer but as a slow train user it is terrible. I get the hs to st Pancras and then have a 40 min walk to Charing x as I cant afford the tube fare every day. Coming home tonight I left Charing x on 1510, them got bus to Dover as no buses for Walmer. I now have a 40 min wait for train to depart. The buses that meet the 1540 train would get me home sooner..how stupid is that....only a year to go. Station staff are not particularly helpful and announcements are non-existent. Prob should have gone via Ramsgate.
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One major problem at the moment is not being able to get correct information via the National Rail site. Southeastern should completely re organize all their timetables and provide the direct service via Ramsgate.
They should also provide free parking at other stations until the line is repaired.ould they not provide faster trains Dover to Victoria every two hours by only stopping at three or four stations? Plus the same on the return?
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Misery on Southeastern
This morning I caught the special link train from Deal to Ramsgate at 6.34 to connect with the 06.58 leaving Ramsgate.
Your farcical and comical organisation held our Ramsgate bound train outside Ramsgate to allow our London bound train to pass us by!!!!!!!
On arriving at Ramsgate your poorly trained and embarrassed staff "RAN" away. On pursuing him he was abusive rude and offered nothing of an apology. On demanding to meet the station master we had to shout across to another platform to get his attention. He was completely unaware of the error of the platform man in letting the train go.
Their is no communication!!!!
As I have said on numerous occasions Mr Statham - you are not fit for purpose. I recently learned that your previous company had just a bad a record.
You should step down. You are a failure and I for one see no reason why I should be paying £6000 a year to pay an incompetent idiot.
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Tuesday 16 Feb:
It appears as suspected that there is no quick fix for the Dover to Folkestone section of line, if indeed there is any fix that will guard against future problems on this section of track.Link to Canterbury to Ashfird line at Wincheap seems a good solution, however the location of the proposed junction would appear to be in an area prone to flooding from the River Stour.
In the meantime we need additional HS trains morning and evening via Ramsgate, or ideally using the Minster loop as surely signaling issues could be overcome here relatively cheaply in comparison to the other works needed.
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They don't even come close to satisfactory. But that's no surprise, as we are always treated as the poor relation to the rest of Kent. Surely more trains could run directly through Canterbury West and Minster???
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Perhaps another point to make to Southeastern are their responsibilities to those with large items of luggage including cycles. As this not short-term engineering works. So they should provide replacement buses with adequate storage space.
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Monday 15 Feb:
Just read that the whole thing has to be rebuilt
To answer the above question,I would rather have a direct service from Deal doing the loop & taking a bit longer than hanging around in the cold waiting for bus/ train connections
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Friday 12 Feb:
Absolutely not, they are appalling. The normally dismal website offers an ostrich like refusal to even admit that there are no through trains, the staff on the phone know nothing at all. We would be happy to change at Ramsgate if there was a reliable service to Deal, but there is not. Better still why not split the train at Ramsgate to eiter Dover or Margate so we would not have to change. We need to get home leaving London at 21.30, which is impossible at the moment. Given the huge cost of tickets we are totally fed up with this non service.
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Saturday 23 Jan:
For leisure travellers and families the worry is they might get used to travelling by car to Ashford or Ebbsfleet, which is quite a bit cheaper and cuts down the normal journey time from Deal to Ashford. I know lots of families who now travel by car to Ashford or Ebbsfleet when travelling in to London.
I would much prefer to travel on the high speed from Deal, however all the time the shuttle service is in place, as a family we'll just drive to Ashford.
Hope this feedback helps.
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Friday 22 Jan:
I see Southeastern have just announced one peak-time highspeed service between Dover and St Pancras in the morning and one in the evening. While welcome for some, this is a very limited response. It is of no help to those who need to be in London around 7.30 or before 8am in the morning. Presumably it was announced on Friday to take some of the heat out of your protest meeting on Friday Jan 22. Can you please maintain pressure for more high speed direct trains in the earlier morning peak via Ramsgate or Minster loop, or insist at the very least that the Dover to Ramsgate shuttle starts earlier to connect with existing high speed services from Ramsgate, via Canterbury West.to arrive in London at 714 and 742. The existing arrangements are woefully inadequate. We must have something better than the patchwork of ill-timed and unreliable bus services. Good luck for your meeting.
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Reason the task force has been created is because no one knows who is going to pay to fix the line yet. That's why there hasn't been any significant work done yet.
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To compound the daily horror we have just been subjected to around 10 southeastern staff at Ramsgate performing a ticket check at the exit to the station! Could the MD of Southeastern explain to us why it is impossible to provide a workable service, but resource is being wasted on pointless monitoring?
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I’m sure everyone will echo my tales of woe, but so far I’ve had to get three £25 taxis to Ramsgate to catch the London train, after the shuttle train was cancelled at the last minute and a promised replacement bus failed to show up. I have had to book a hotel at Heathrow and stay overnight to get a 10.10am flight to the US, because I didn’t feel confident the trains would be able get me from Deal in time. And I’ve so far stayed four nights in London, because by the time I’d got back home to Deal, it would almost be time to set out back again for early meetings.
The expense has been crippling, but what is most frustrating is the lack of accurate information, anywhere. You get on a train from London not knowing if there will be buses at Folkestone West or whether the connection at Ramsgate will show up. Last week, I waited 40 minutes in bitter cold on the platform at Ramsgate for a train towards Dover that - according to both the constant loudspeaker announcements and the boards - was running late but due any minute. Eventually, one of the station staff told us we were waiting for a train that had actually left five minutes before the London train pulled in, and that there wouldn’t be another one. Again got home by taxi, sharing with two other stranded Deal-ites.
But you know this already...
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I can see where you are coming from with the services starting at Dover vice Margate 12 car and Ashford, however the resources aren't there to do that. If you think, the driver and on board manager for both those services need to come from somewhere and they are already on other trains starting from. I Folkestone and from Ashford and Margate and they would have to book on so much earlier that they wouldn't be able to work the last part of their shift so trains later in the day would be affected by no crew. there are no more members of staff to run these services.
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Friday 15th:
I'm retired so don't have to travel to London but use it regularly for recreation, but won't be for awhile until this is sorted.
Can't believe the times of the buses from Dover or the fast trains from Ramsgate don't seem to have been co-ordinated in any way for people travelling from Martin Mill, Walmer, Deal & Sandwich.
People in the know have known for years that those tunnels have been unsafe and nothings been done.
I reckon it's going to be quite a while before they're up & running again. Using the Minster loop seems inevitable so it may as well be sooner rather than later.
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Only sheets for Mon-Friday trains available. New w/end poster up at Deal station today. No good way to return to Deal Sat evening and best to compare with the one on this site. Staff think the Folkestone option best in evenings, but travel vis Ramsgate better in morning. Do not count on National Rail Enquiries updating all journeys.
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Thursday 14th:
It is essential that the Minster Loop is a priority to a renewed all day/every day high sped service from Deal to London St Pancs.
Bus shuttles are unreliable, connections and communication also unreliable.
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The arrangements are sadly lacking, utilizing the minster loop which is available would solve the problem - a two hour journey is not acceptable - particularly as there is a long waiting time at Ramsgate to connect to the HS train- pull your finger out southeastern trains
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Wednesday 13th:
Im not opposed to greater use of the Minster loop but I think the focus on triage is a mistake. The focus should be on fixing the line quickly and permanently. This probably requires additional funds/ commitments from central government. Clearly at Dawlish there was a major commitment to resolving the issue quickly and there is not the same commitment to the Dover line because we are are relatively low priority. The only possible leverage we have is to commit to vote for the Tories nearest rivals at the next general election unless we see a major commitment to the area. Across the three affected constituencies this could make the government take notice. I say this as a natural Tory voter and a realist.
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Hi Sorry we didn't attend on Monday, only found your site on Tuesday.
I totally agree with every thing you have put here. Yesterday came via Folkestone before direct bus started, arrived at Dover with four minutes to spare. Would have been an hours wait or a taxi ride. With train bus train via Folkestone it now takes 1 hour 50 minutes to travel St Pancras to Walmer.
We all know there is no quick fix to re-installing the line. We need an adequate service now.
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The St Pancras circular route was very convenient not only for St Pancras passengers but those wishing to travel to intermediate stations such as the Medway Towns. Why is it not possible to have a circular route which starts at Dover terminating at Folkestone via St Pancras and then Folkestone to Dover via St Pancras??
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Travelling to London twice a week is utterly miserable at present.Non of the connections work well.Think the Minster Loop a great idea.Wish the TRAINS4DEAL protest at the Bohemian had been on the Deal Web earlier as would have attended but new nothing about it Have enormous respect for TRAINS4DEAL after the battle for HS1
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Tuesday 12th:
No . They are ill thought out and random in both information and performance. Deal seems to be an unwelcome adjunct for SE and at any excuse they drop us out of the equation . They have a legal responsibility to run HS trains from Deal , whether they like it or not . Many people have moved home and business to Deal on the back of fast trains . Who is going to pick up their costs ? SE? Network Rail? The collapse of the sea wall is clearly the result of years of neglect, not a few weeks heavy rain . Is there a compensation scheme ? And if not, why not?
However, just in the short term more trains MUST run from Deal.
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Monday 11th:
Sorry that I can't come to the meeting to lend support as I am driving (perforce) back to London that afternoon. I am not a daily commuter but have great sympathy for those who are. I do go to London once every two weeks or so, however, and I am appalled by the lack of joined up thinking by Southeastern - replacement buses that don't connect to the service intended! Surely this can and must be sorted out at a minimum. It is nothing short of insulting.
Also, as a minimum, could we have an indication of times during which the Deal ticket office is open so as to get advice from a real live person. Opening hours seem to be a closely guarded secret. At present, there is a sign saying the ticket office is open 05.45-19.10! Not much use if there is no one manning it. I have gone at various times during the day, but have not yet managed to catch anyone on duty. There is also a sign saying that there is an alternative route to London via Canterbury, but Canterbury is not on the timetable boards! Unbelievable. My needs are nothing like as urgent as the commuters, but presumably Southeastern would like my business - if they want it, they will have to let me know what my options are.
When things go wrong (and a collapsed sea wall is as wrong as it comes) no one expects it to be easy, nor for there to be a miracle solution, but a good clear system of communication should be possible and would reduce frustration and unnecessary stress.
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I don't work in London but I have quite a lot of journeys to visit my sick sister on London, sometimes returning Sundays. I waited at Folkestone for an hour for a replacement bus Sunday - there was no sign to say which platform the buses go from. I will only go via Ramsgate in future , but I do support your plan for HSs to go via Ramsgate loop. I am also sorry they still expect us to pay a high speed price and claim it back!!!
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Monday 11th:
Replacement buses must be timed to connect with the intended service - in the event of unavoidable delays, the train must wait.
Better information about alternative routes (not using buses) should be available.
The manned hours of the Deal station should be clearly displayed so that advice can be sought from a real person.
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Monday 11th:
The train service from Deal to St Pancras is inadequate at the moment. I have hospital appointments and an operation in London coming up for treatment for pain, and travelling for me is very difficult as it is, without an extended journey with extra travel changes. Please consider a direct HS train to St Pancras via the Minster loop. Thank you
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Sunday 10th:
Southeastern's response to the broken line is inadequate. The Minster loop is a far more effective and fair solution for the commuters of Dover, Sandwich and Deal. It needs to be resolved now.
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Sunday 10th:
My partner and I have just put our house on sale this weekend and plan to move from Deal to Ashford. The current situation with the ridiculously unreliable connections sadly makes it too difficult to commute from Deal anymore.
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Sunday 10th:
Fix it Southeastern trains. Use a bit of imagination and creativity to improve this vital commute as your inept and useless inspections of the sea wall have shown you are clearly in breach of your contractual obligations as a train operator.
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Sunday 10th:
Hi, I go up to London every week. I can cope with the bus up via Ramsgate but am not prepared to do the train/bus/train coming home.
Also I heard a train guy say this week that they don't think it will be fixed till June!
Unfortunately I can't make Monday's mtg as I"ll be in London but keen to support suggestions for better service and also to encourage them to fix quicker.
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Sunday 10th:
I am driving to Folkestone west from Walmer, and I'd be happy to offer lift back to Deal for anyone of my fellow sufferers.
can't offer a permanent car share, as I am a bit erratic on the return, but will normally be on the 17.37or 18.37 - feel free to drop me a line on 07718207579 And see if I am on!
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Sunday 10th:
Personally I think Southeastern planners have done a super job with such little time to work things out. Most of your plans are unrealistic and impossible to resource.
NOTE from Trains4deal: We don't think this view is widely shared. The alternatives we propose are based on painstaking research of timetables and other publicly-available information, plus discussions with industry insiders and other informed commentators. We are well aware of the constraints on what is possible (e.g. train- and crew -availability, how may trains can run down the track in peak hours, etc), but we still think that our local commuters and other rail travellers deserve a better deal than what's actually been delivered this past week.
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Friday 8 Jan:
This morning, the 6.34 shuttle to Ramsgate was running two minutes late and we had debate about whether or not to go and get the bus service to Folkestone West when the train came in. We got on it and travelled to Ramsgate only to be held outside the station for a couple more minutes. When we arrived at the platform and the train doors opened, we could see the 06.58 train to St Pancras pulling out of the station. As you can image, 40 or so furious "customers" rounded on the station staff. They claimed that they had asked the driver to wait for our shuttle but the driver refused. This is not good enough especially as that shuttle service has been put on to connect to the trains at Ramsgate. It's always a bit of a rush as you only have a few mins to get down and then up the stairs to the correct platform. The shuttle should leave at least two minutes earlier or the driver should wait. Not the happiest of bunnies this morning.
On the plus side the express bus service from FW to Deal and Sandwich seems to be working OK although the Deal bus is very crowded.
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Friday 8 Jan:
I go in to St Pancras from Walmer 3 days a week, paying on a daily basis, usually on the earliest off peak train. Since the line collapse I'm now driving to Folkestone West for the 09.16 if I want to get to St Pancras (changing at Ashford) for 10.21 ( I have a connection for another train from Marylebone). Alternatively I go via Ramsgate on the 08.47, getting in at 10.46. Both are now frustratingly longer than normal (the 0839, 1 change at Ashford, in at 1021, or the 0939 direct which arrives at 10.51).
I agree, they need to sort out some more direct trains, via Canterbury, but not just at peak time -off-peak and super off-peak too.
The current set up is a shambles. The 'express' buses don't take 20 minutes as the schedule says, when there's any traffic they miss the connection. Why they pick up at Folkestone Central too is a mystery, get everyone who needs a bus off at Folkestone West.
At Folkestone West the car park is virtually full and they have no plans for an overflow, don't seem interested.
It's also impossible to get the reduced fare they promised, excluding high speed, at Folkestone West. Even though I have a driving licence showing I live in Walmer they say I could be a Folkestone resident so won't sell a ticket from Walmer. I have to explain this constantly on the train and buy a ticket, after queuing, at St Pancras.
6 months of this could do me in.
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As someone who spends a fortune on HS commuting on the 05.57 from Deal to St Pancras I would be happy for a straight through route. My husband gets a train an hour later we own one car so we can't both drive to folkestone,nor do we wish to. Also my student daughter does not own a car so it is assumed we will put up with awful journey for months. The communication from southern is rubbish Christmas eve we had no idea if we were going to get home.
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The service has been very poor this week. While the fast bus from Deal has been efficient, it leaves me with 25 minutes wait in Folkestone. On the return, there are no announcements in FKW, with Tuesday's 17.37 STP departure stopping at Ashford due driver hours, 20 min wait, then no fast bus to Deal at FKW. Journey home took nearly 3 hrs!! With little sleep, this morning's 0545 stopped at Ashford for 30 mins and I missed an 8am meeting. Utterly dreadful start to 2016. The direct train from Dover via Ramsgate makes complete sense. They must have thought about it. Why have they not implemented it?
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Hello Have tweeted quite a bit on this and just found your website. Approve of most of your suggestions. Doubt can make Monday as having 0430 alarms at the moment but hope goes well! Email to Charlie Elphicke as below, best wishes Tristan Dear Charlie Elphicke There are several suggestions that would seem to make sense during the current rail trouble, but the two main ones distil down to this: a. consider a direct service from Dover to St Pancras via Ramsgate b. with regard to shuttle trains on the Dover-Sandwich line, in either direction, or for replacement buses, please make sure these match up with train services. For example, meet HS trains at Folkestone West, even if they're delayed. Make sure trains from Ramsgate to Deal/Dover (and vice versa) arrive and leave to be times with the Ramsgate HS services.
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I have been posting various tweets on the South East system and have also suggested the route as outlined. I am not happy or satisfied with their responses. I was not particularly happy this morning either whereupon having driven to Folkestone Central, the (0711) slow train was still on the platform which delayed the HS. To make it worse we were kicked off at Ashford this evening due to having no driver to continue our journey to Folkestone. Hundreds disrupted and having to squash on the 1852 slow train to Folkestone rather than merely having 1 Staff member - a driver, continue on. all of this is of course on top of the seemingly uncaring, thoughtless , nonsensical approach being offered by South Eastern for rail replacement work that will no doubt take a fair few months to complete. South Eastern have, and continue doing so, in treating rail passengers with such disdain as to suggest they are doing us a favour. We have no choice but to utilise their services and we need both the High Speed and regular service to be run by 2 separate and different companies in order to offer competition and improvement.
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I agree with all of the above. We must have direct HS trains from Deal during the peak hours. Have so far been going via Ramsgate but connections mean 15-25 mins waiting on station, not good enough! Also, the information regarding current replacement services has been appalling, the fast buses in particular which I only heard about today.
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Agree wholeheartedly with direct trains proposal. The alternative services are a joke. Either stuck on a bus (and what happens during Operation Stack or increased security at Dover to traffic?) or waiting in the cold to connect for half an hour at Ramsgate? We decided to drive from Deal to Ramsgate and catch the train from there, but a commute which now exceeds 5 hours a day isn't viable long term. As for the "compensation" - it is derisory. Would like to come to the meeting on Monday 11th but have a work function that evening
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They are also running a fast bus to Walmer/Deal from Folkestone West linking from the 17.37 and 18.37 from St Pancras but commuters were told to get off at Folkestone Central...!
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I'm a season ticket holder, commuitng daily from Martin Mill to London St Pancras. I normally catch the 0608 departure to arrive in London at 0725. The replacement train/bus/train service, which I experienced this morning was laborious. The bus connections are poor. Please do try to pressurise Sotheastern to run some direct high speed trains from Dover, Martin Mill, Walmer, Deal and Sandwich, via Ramsgate and Canterbury for the early peak services. Or, at the very least, run a connecting train shuttle from Dover to Ramsgate, to connect with the 0558 and 0628 Ramsgate services to London, via Canterbury West, to allow arrival in London at 0714 and 0742.
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Subject: Unbelievable to think that in this day and age (Southeastern) can't get the most basic of transport needs sorted out and I pay £6800.00 per annum
Today arrived at St P to get the 18.37 to Folkestone West to get to Deal. It is painful enough having to leave home at 5.30 instead of 6.30 and getting home at earliest at 20.30 due to the farcical situation of the line closure. And as with many others we demand compensation and a speedy resolve. BUT today's clown ole activity is really taking the .......
So arrived at St P to take the 18.37 as far as it runs at present - learn that the train would be delayed because of staff shortages due to late running incoming train.
Train arrived into platform and we boarded and train left at 19.00 approx 23 minutes late
We were told by guard that there would be an express coach to meet us to take us in our way Direct to Deal as has been the agreement.
Arrived at Folkestone West - there was NOT ONE member of southeastern on the arrival platform. It was pouring with rain.
We proceeded to walk to the far end of the east bound car park where there were two blue double decker buses.
The bus driver told us they were not running and we should go over to the west bound car park.
On travelling across the station I met four Revenue officers on the west bound station. I said to them. "Would it not be helpful to have been on the other side to assist us". The most incredibly rude and arrogant women looked at me, smirked and said "Yes it would". I asked her for her name. She refused to give it to me. This is intolerable behaviour. I took a photograph of the group as they refused to give me any details. So the women in turn took photographs of me.
As a passenger paying £6800 a year I do not expect to be treated in such a way.
On moving to the west bound car park we were told that the express press Coach had left completely empty on time despite the train it was due to meet was running 20 minutes late. We were told the next coach would be 40 minutes. I lost my temper but calmed and apologised.
We were left in the pouring rain with no transport arguing with a bus driver who explained it was not his fault.
Eventually after 20 minutes the bus controller was able to arouse one of the sleeping drivers on the otherside of the station East Bound We then had to traipse across the station again to get on a bus.
The driver showed absolutely no compassion for the passengers and decided to take the longest possible route from Folkstone West to Follestone Central on her way to Dover by the longest route possible. She failed to use the M20 but tol all the A roads. It is now 21.00 - and he situation is utterly preposterous and intolerable.
Sent from my iPhone
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Subject: Today arrived at St P to get the 18.37 to Folkestone
Today arrived at St P to get the 18.37 to Folkestone West to get to Deal
Arrived to learn that the train would be delayed because of staff shortages
Train arrived into platform and boarded and train left at 19.00 approx
We were told by guard that there would be an express coach to meet us.
Arrived at Folkedtone West - there was not one member of southeastern on the arrival platform. It was pouring with rain.
We proceeded to walk to the far end of the east bound car park where there were two blue double decker buses.
The bus driver told us they were not running and we should go over to the west bound car park.
On travelling across the station I met four Revenue officers on the west bound station. I said to them. "Would it not be helpful to have been on the other side to assist us". The most incredibly rude and arrogant women looked at me, smirked and said "Yes it would". I asked her for her name. She refused to give it to me. This is intolerable behaviour. I took a photograph of the group as they refused to give me any details. So the women in turn took photographs of me.
As a passenger paying £6800 a year I do not expect to be treated in such a way.
On moving to the car park we were told that the express Coach had left on the dot of when the train should have arrived. We were told the next coach would be 40 minutes
Consequently we were left in the pouring rain with no transport.
Eventually after 20 minutes the bus controller was able to arouse one of the sleeping drivers on the otherside of the station East Bound We then had to traipse across the station again to get on a bus.
The driver showed absolutely no compassion for the passengers and decided to take the longest possible route from Folkstone West to Follestone Central on her way to Dover by the longest route possible. She failed to use the M20 but took all the A roads. It is now 21.00 - and he situation is utterly preposterous and intolerable.
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